On a recent episode of The Sales Hunter Podcast, Mark sat down with Matt Ferguson, a seasoned coach to salespeople and sales leaders who’s worked across seven countries and guided over 50 sales leaders. Together, they tackled why so many sales teams seem to fall short, and what managers in the “middle” can actually do to change the game.
The Experience Trap: Top Performer, Now What?
Sales teams often promote their best individual contributors into management. The trouble is, excellence at selling doesn’t guarantee excellence at leading. Most new sales managers get little to no actual training for their new job, even though their new role couldn’t be more different from their last. As Matt puts it, “People get promoted, they get no training. That job is completely different than being an individual contributor.”
This leads to inconsistent management styles and, ultimately, confusion down the line. Every salesperson ends up with their own answers to basic questions about what’s expected, thus killing consistency and predictability in results.
Mixed Signals at Every Level
A big issue is communication breakdowns from the top. Too often, a CEO shares a vision or new priority a single time in a high-level meeting and assumes everyone in the organization will get it. But the message gets diluted and distorted as it filters through layers of management. By the time it hits the front lines, reps are operating with unclear or even conflicting directions.
Managers caught in the middle are under siege from all directions: marketing, supply chain, upper management, and their own reps. Without clear, consistent priorities, everything feels urgent, and nothing really gets accomplished.
Focus Beats Everything Else
So, what’s the fix? Laser-like focus. Both Mark and Matt agree the only way to combat chaos is to clarify just three or four key priorities at any given time, and get buy-in both from above and below.
Matt says it simply: “If you can figure out the three things that matter to you, or the four, whatever it is… you have to be aligned above and below for that to happen.” Anything outside these core priorities has to be deprioritized, or teams risk drowning in noise.
Metrics That Actually Matter
Many organizations obsess over activity metrics that don’t drive results. Matt recalls, “I always think back to that. When I think of metrics, I’m always just like, that didn’t matter.” Instead, he recommends zeroing in on the outcome metrics that truly drive the business forward, such as completed quality meetings, not just number of dials or emails sent.
Every team and company will have different key metrics based on their sales cycles and goals. The point is to strip away meaningless data and get everybody aligned on the indicators that actually lead to top-line revenue.
The Power of Simple Accountability
Consistency is everything—but so is accountability. Simple frameworks work best. Matt shares a client success: Monday, decide together what will get done; Wednesday or Thursday, quick check-in; Friday, review results. “That simple thing that we put in place, that’s really working.” The goal isn’t micromanagement, but giving reps direction so they know exactly what success looks like for the week.
Managers must resist the urge to over-complicate their approach. Instead, help every rep answer one critical question: “Do you know if you’ve had a good week or not?”
Most Salespeople Crave Clarity, Not Just Cash
It’s a myth that the best salespeople are purely money-motivated. What most actually want is to know they’re good at their job. The sense of self-worth and accomplishment means more than just chasing the next commission check.
Matt puts it this way: “Most salespeople are not money motivated… What I do believe is most people want to know that they’re good at their job.” Weekly clarity and recognition of progress are more motivating than anxiety over quotas.
Structure Isn’t Micromanagement
Many fear that more regular check-ins or structure will be seen as micromanagement. The truth is, strong reps, like all high performers, crave direction and clarity. Drawing the line between accountability and true micromanagement is key, but don’t shy away from structure for fear of pushback.
As Matt points out, “It’s amazing what people think micromanagement is. But it’s not. It’s actually leading and getting people, getting the best out of people.”
Two Big Levers for Leaders
If there are two things every sales leader should prioritize, it’s clarity and alignment. Clarity on the sales process (so reps have an agreed-upon path to success), and alignment between comps, roles, and actual responsibilities. When these two pieces are in place, chaos and turnover drop dramatically.
To sum up: Provide structure, cut the noise, focus on what matters, and help your team see their progress week to week. The results will speak for themselves.
Want the rest of Matt Ferguson’s management tips? Connect with him on LinkedIn or visit mattdferguson.com. And remember: the best sales teams aren’t those doing the most things, but those doing the right things well.
Mark Hunter :
Do your salespeople really know what to do? I mean, I’m being serious. Do your salespeople really know what to do? And then are they doing it? Hey, with me today, Matt Ferguson. He coaches salespeople, sales leaders. He’s been doing it for years, 7 different countries, tons of leaders he’s worked with. Why am I talking? Let’s get the show going right now. You’re listening to the Sales Hunter Podcast with Marc Hunter, where the focus is to help you as a sales leader sell with confidence and integrity. And now, here’s your host. If I were to ask your salespeople, what is it that they do? I bet every one of your salespeople would give me a different answer.
Mark Hunter :
And that’s part of the problem as to why you’re not maximizing your sales and your profit. Matt Ferguson, welcome to the show. Let’s dive into this one.
Matt Ferguson :
I love, I love what you just said there about the different answers.
Mark Hunter :
Yes, right? Why is that? Why can’t we screw up a 2-car funeral pretty well, pretty quickly? Right. And where is it breaking down at? Why is it? And what is the impact it’s having on our top line and our bottom line? Go.
Matt Ferguson :
Well, let’s talk about why it happens first. And I think you said it in the intro, but I’ve coached over 50 different leaders.
Mark Hunter :
Okay.
Matt Ferguson :
And almost every one of them was just like myself. And it’s actually why I created my company, was a top performer that got put into leadership. Right? That’s what we do. We, if somebody’s good, we put them in and say, hey, let’s, let’s lead them. Right? Go, go lead them. Go, go. The training is go teach them to do what you know how to do. Okay, but we actually assume because we know how to do it that everybody else knows how to do it.
Matt Ferguson :
So I can’t tell you how many different times I’ll start working with somebody new and, and everybody immediately starts bitching, right? Because, you know, you have one or two good players on every team and then you got the middle And then you got the rest. But once you start getting down the middle into the rest, we start complaining. And my question always goes to the same, is like, do they actually know what to do?
Mark Hunter :
And they don’t. They don’t know what to do because they’ve been hearing mixed signals, right?
Matt Ferguson :
Correct.
Mark Hunter :
Correct.
Matt Ferguson :
So that is the answer. It’s because People get promoted, they get no training. That job is completely different than being an individual contributor. And by the way, they don’t really know what to do in their position. And I thought when I first started doing this that I would only coach people that were, you know, 6 to 18 months in the position. What I found is people 3, 4, 5, 6 years into the position, everybody needs help.
Mark Hunter :
Everybody needs help because all we’re doing is stumbling forward thinking we’re getting business and we, we pat ourselves on the back because we’re getting business. We’re just getting stuff that’s coming in the door. But okay, why is— I’ve got a theory. I have a theory. I get to work with a lot of CEOs of large companies and it’s interesting, but they will communicate something once in a meeting of their peers and everybody understands it. They somehow think that all they have to do is communicate something once and everybody in the organization gets it. No, it’s like that old telephone game. The message gets so diluted and so changed and people understand and hear things differently.
Mark Hunter :
So that salesperson out on the street, they’re getting a totally different message. But that sales manager caught in the middle, that sales lead— I hate the term manager— leader caught in the middle. What’s some advice you can give to them to help figure this thing out?
Matt Ferguson :
Um, I’ll tell you where it changed for me, because I was awful a year, year and a half in. And I actually had a mentor that told me, he’s like, you know what your problem is? And I’m like, yeah, tell me. Although I didn’t think I had one at the time, you know.
Mark Hunter :
I’m, I’m right there with you.
Matt Ferguson :
He’s like, he’s like, you’re, you’re too subjective and you’re emotional. And I’m like, I’m not even sure at the time I knew what subjective was, but I knew, I knew what emotional meant and I knew I was emotional, right? So one of the things I did, right, to, to fix the emotion part is Anytime something happens to me, although with my kids and my wife I’m not as good, but anytime something happens to me, I, I try and wait 15 to 20 minutes before I react just so I can not, not react poorly. But to go to the subjective part, which all it is is it’s an opinion, my opinions were wrong because my opinions were always Nobody’s as good as me, so I should just tell everybody to do how I did it, and I should keep going and keep doing that, right? But it wasn’t until I switched and flipped everything to make— try and make everything as objective as I could, so stick with facts, in order to take the emotion out. So I love how you said stuck in the middle. Okay, because being stuck in the middle sucks. But that’s, by the way, that’s what the job is. And I was actually thinking about a post about this that I’m glad you brought this up, because now it reminded me, because of course I didn’t do it because it was just in my head. But the hardest part is when you’re an individual contributor, you have one boss, basically.
Mark Hunter :
Right.
Matt Ferguson :
When you get promoted and you’re in the middle, Your, your reps are your boss, your boss is your boss, marketing— there’s a million of them. So going back to the question that you asked is, what do you do when you’re in the middle? If you make everything objective and stick to the facts, it makes it easier to report up and down because you’re just talking about the truth instead of your boss’s opinion, your reps’ Horrible sales stories that they’re telling you. That’d be the— if you took anything away from this episode, take that away.
Mark Hunter :
OK, now let’s unpack that some more, because here’s the challenge: you’re getting 50 priorities, and you got to execute them all at one time, right? Marketing’s coming at you; you got multiple divisions; you got supply chain; you got all, all these issues. And you, you’ve got to somehow separate that. I always say, when you’re in the middle like that, the mark of a good day is that you just didn’t get shot in either the front or the back, right? You just survived, right? Right. I mean, come on, we’ve been there. So how do I, as a manager, somehow pull all those 50 down into just those 3 or 4 that my salespeople can actually execute? And I still got to deliver the number.
Matt Ferguson :
The priority— your priorities are everything. Because, you know, I meet with a sales leader every Friday, almost every Friday at 9 o’clock, and I can almost tell you what his reaction is going to be when we get on the call because it’s going to be like, it’s been a week. I’m gonna tell you why he struggles every week is because he is not aligned with his leadership team on what the priorities actually are. So everything gets overblown for what happens because the priority switches every day.
Mark Hunter :
Yep.
Matt Ferguson :
So if you can figure out the, the 3 things that matter to you, or the 4, whatever it is, and then everything else— I’m not saying that it’s not a problem. But you just don’t focus on that much because it just doesn’t matter to you. But you have to be aligned above and below for that to happen. Because if it’s not, then everything just keeps coming at you.
Mark Hunter :
And that comes back to the need that when you’re in the middle like that, you’ve got to be having meetings with your people, with your managers above you, in terms of getting down to those 3 or 4 key priorities. I contend that if I focus on less but do it better, I’ll actually accomplish more. And my sales team will accomplish far more. But again, I got people beating me up all the time. And my salespeople, at the end of the day, they are doing 2 things. One, taking the easiest path, whatever it is. And 2, focused on their comp plan, right?
Matt Ferguson :
And by the way, that’s why That’s a great point. Salespeople do the easy thing to make the most money.
Mark Hunter :
Right, right. And they know how to do that well. They figure out so fast what is the easiest path to make their number, to make the amount of money that they want to make. I mean, bam, you know.
Matt Ferguson :
Marc, I have a friend that I met at my first sales job. That, that was— I don’t even know how long ago, 15, 16 years ago, but we’ve stayed in touch over the time. He’s the best person I’ve ever seen at breaking comp plans, and he does it everywhere that he goes.
Mark Hunter :
Okay, share, share his secret.
Matt Ferguson :
I don’t know his secret, and what I tell him is he should actually just create his own business on LinkedIn saying that he could break anybody’s comp plan. Because reps would hire him and he would make it. But he always figures out the angle to do the less work to make the most money.
Mark Hunter :
But it comes down to he’s singularly focused, right? I mean, he is absolutely. And this is the key to success in sales is we serve customers. And when you’re in front of that customer, you are 100% with that customer. And yet somehow we don’t take that rule and apply it to every element of our job like we should. So I’m going to come back. Do you have, you know, what are the secrets that I’m that sales manager, that sales leader? I’m getting 50 things coming down on me. I’ve got to call it down to those 5 or 6 and get my team executed on it. What’s the strategy I should be using? In that role?
Matt Ferguson :
I think you got to figure out what actually matters. Like, what matters? I go back to my first sales job at Career Builder. And do you know what the metric was that we were judged on? 30 phone calls a day.
Mark Hunter :
Okay.
Matt Ferguson :
Now, they sent out a call report Every— and it didn’t happen until after lunch, but then the call report would come out every hour, I think it was. If I hit 30 dials, nobody said anything. And if I didn’t hit 30 dials, nobody said anything. So it’s like, what’s the point? What’s the point of this metric? So, so why even do it?
Mark Hunter :
Right?
Matt Ferguson :
But I always, I always think back to that. When I think of, of metrics, right? And I’m always just like, that didn’t matter. So I’ve actually never even cared that much about activity metrics because everybody’s activity usually produces something different. And what I do like to do though is figure out what is the metric that you care about. Right? Or what are the 1 or 2 metrics that you care about? And for me, I’ve always— the Sales Hunter Podcast, which is you, I love how your, your last name is Hunter. But like, I’ve always led hunters. And the thing that I’ve cared about the most is how many meetings can you book and complete? But more importantly, what are the quality of those meetings. Because I know if we, we’re booking meetings and we’re booking the right meetings, I can help them move through the funnel and develop reps, right? But those have always been my 2 most important things is what meetings are we booking and what’s the quality.
Matt Ferguson :
But for everybody it’s different. It depends on what the position is. But you gotta have a focus, and too many companies focus on an outcome And then only 1 or 2 reps are hitting the outcome. And then everybody else is wondering, well, I think I’m good at this job, but I’m not sure.
Mark Hunter :
OK, you said a lot. Oh, by the way, my last name was Ferguson before I changed it to Hunter. So anyway, you just hit on something. And it reminded me, I remember when I was in that middle job. In fact, even when I was in the senior, there were a lot of initiatives and priorities that, that came down to me that I had to dole out to my team that ultimately were just various senior leaders’ KPIs. It was literally their KPIs. It had nothing to do with really moving the financials. It was somebody’s KPIs.
Mark Hunter :
But okay, let’s, let’s put that tangent aside because there was something else that you said about the metrics. And again, how many times do you see organizations, spreadsheet jockeys? Our good friend Mike Weinberg loves to use that term, spreadsheet jockeys. We just— because it’s easy to measure doesn’t mean it should be measured. But I do believe everybody has got 1 or 2 numbers that if you achieve that, you achieve success. In my own company, it’s just conversations. I know if I have conversations, not text messages, but conversations with leaders, my business is good.
Matt Ferguson :
Yeah.
Mark Hunter :
And you do too. I’m sure you got a metric. How can I, as a leader, as a manager, help my people hone in on that metric, that one thing, that one thing that’s gonna move them because ultimately, that’s gonna move the top line and the bottom line.
Matt Ferguson :
Well, let’s go back to what we started the conversation with, which is, do people actually know their job? Because I have this thing where I ask this to people all the time, especially salespeople. I’m like, and by the way, I, I say, hey, it’s Friday at 4 o’clock. Do you know if you’ve had a good week or not? And the blank stares that I get, it’s almost every time because nobody really knows.
Mark Hunter :
Mm-hmm.
Matt Ferguson :
So if you want to go back to the one or two things, and this is what I implement with my clients all the time with their people. It’s like, what are people supposed to be doing and what are they supposed to accomplish at the end of the week? That doesn’t mean it has to be a sale, because I coach people with anywhere from a, a 20-minute sales cycle to a 2-year sales cycle. But it’s like, what are we supposed to be doing to break it down, to know that we’re actually doing the right things? Because I’ll see if you agree with me on this. Most salespeople are not money motivated, in my opinion, because if they were money motivated, I don’t think we’ve had so many people missing quota. Okay. What I do believe is most people want to know that they’re good at their job.
Mark Hunter :
I’m gonna— I agree with you. I agree with you. Money is actually second because again, it’s that, it’s that, am I a comp— that sense of self-worth. Yeah, a sense of self-worth. Now, compensation fits behind that because, again, they’re not, they’re not going to do it forever for peanuts. But it’s a sense of self-worth. And you’re right, if I, if I don’t end the day, if I don’t end the week realizing what I’ve done good, I’m stressed. I’m not feeling good.
Matt Ferguson :
I just, I just had a client tell me yesterday because they had implemented this one thing and one of the leaders implemented this thing where I’m going to meet with them on Monday. Review what they have to do and accomplish that we’ve agreed upon. And then Friday, we meet to see if they actually did. And then the director was, was like, hey, you’re not going to believe this. But that simple thing that we put in place, that’s really working. I’m like, imagine that.
Mark Hunter :
Such an easy— hey, I’m going to add a piece to that. I love the Wednesday afternoon, Thursday morning call. How are we doing on those things? In other words, you know, again, because by the time you get to Friday, it’s too late to do anything. And I love that kind of that midweek, we better assess. But I love what you said there. But because again, it’s just breaking it down. It’s very simplified.
Matt Ferguson :
By the way, what we just said there, if you met with somebody Monday, checked in Wednesday or Thursday morning, and then checked in again Friday, How many people would poll that and say that’s micromanaging?
Mark Hunter :
Oh, a lot of people would poll and say that’s micromanaging. They would. They would scream up and down for that. And I run into that as I share that with management teams. And yet, hold it. Hold it. When we drive a car, are we micromanaging when we’re looking at the fuel gauge? Are we micromanaging when we’re looking at the speedometer? Hmm, no, we’re staying the course. We’re staying the course.
Mark Hunter :
So of course you got to do things that are going to stay the course. But I think it comes back to its accountability. It’s accountability to yourself and your team. And that’s understated in sales.
Matt Ferguson :
And by the way, I don’t— listen, I don’t believe that you should be a micromanager. But I also think that at a certain point, Some people need micromanaged because they need it.
Mark Hunter :
Mm-hmm.
Matt Ferguson :
That’s not your best people. It’s not even your, your B+ players, but some people need it to get going in the right direction. And I’ll even throw this— throw something else at you. But since they’ve implemented this, their reps have told them how much they like it because it gives them direction and they know exactly what to do.
Mark Hunter :
Creates clarity. That is incredible. Hey, as we’re having a great conversation here with Matt, do me a favor. Leave me a review on your favorite podcast app, would you? Because this is a great conversation. Matt, come back and pick up some more on what you just said.
Matt Ferguson :
People, listen, I was in a flat— I was at a startup where we were a flat organization. And for people that don’t know what that is, because I’ve never heard of it since, But we really tried to make no managers. About a year and a half in, the leaders decided that that wasn’t going to work, and they were going to make managers, and I was going to be one of the managers. Okay? And what I was worried about, what everybody was going to think. So I actually went to one of the better reps, and I asked her, I was like, hey, what do you think about this whole thing that’s going on? She’s like, What do you mean? This is great. We actually need leadership. We need direction on what to do. Like, we actually want this.
Matt Ferguson :
So I’m telling you, people think— it’s amazing what people think micromanagement is.
Mark Hunter :
Yeah.
Matt Ferguson :
But it’s, it’s, it’s not. It’s actually leading and getting people, getting the best out of people. It’s not, it’s not micromanagement. I think it’s a huge— I don’t know. I just think that’s a term that gets overused. That’s not even true.
Mark Hunter :
Well, it gets overused because people use it as an excuse. You know, you know, I hear this in kids. I mean, my kids would say, Mom, Dad, why do you tell me what to do? Did it mean so-and-so doesn’t have it? But you know what? Kids crave structure. Kids, at the end of the day, they crave structure. We all as a As humans crave structure. No, we don’t want to be mandated. But yeah. Wow.
Mark Hunter :
OK, this is unbelievable conversation. Give us a couple of tips. What, what’s the big nuggets when you’re working with it? When you’re working with leaders, what are those 1 or 2 things that you say, hey, these are must-haves, must-dos that you got to do to be successful in your job?
Matt Ferguson :
For one, I believe there needs to be clarity from start to finish on what the sales process is. Too many people forecasting and all that look bad is because they’re— they have such a generic forecast that they could have somebody all the way through the funnel, and if I ask their rep what the pain was, the rep doesn’t even know. Which means essentially you’re on first base. You’re not even close to rounding home.
Mark Hunter :
Hmm.
Matt Ferguson :
So that’s like the first thing. Like you said, clarity on the process, because the process then gives us a path on what we’re supposed to do to actually close the deal and what we need to have in these conversations to move it through the funnel. And the second thing would be What is the role and responsibility of your people? And do your comp— does your comp plan match what you want them to do? I, I will tell you that if you got those 2 things, and those are the first 2 steps in my 6-step process, if you got those 2 things right and you got the right people in those seats, it’s amazing how much How many problems that solved. Oh, so I won’t go through all 6, but I’ll give you those 2 because I think those are very important.
Mark Hunter :
Well, yeah, I, I love those 2. So if you want to get those other 4, you got to reach out to Matt Ferguson. You can find him on LinkedIn, mattferguson.com. Matt, this has been a great conversation. Thank, thank you for joining us. Is there any other place that you want people to go if you want them to connect with you?
Matt Ferguson :
LinkedIn, my website, which is Matt D— there’s a D in there—
Mark Hunter :
Ferguson. Oh, there is a D in there? I didn’t know that.
Matt Ferguson :
There’s a D. It’s easy to miss, but that’s the domain that was available 5 years ago. And then I have— I don’t know how many videos on TikTok, but I have a bunch. I have a bunch of videos on there.
Mark Hunter :
Oh, you’re one of those people. Anyway, Matt, absolutely a great conversation. Thank you for— thank you for Joining me, you’ve been listening to the Sales Hunter Podcast, 2 episodes a week, one like this where we do a deep dive. mattdferguson.com is where you go to find out more about our guest today. It’s been a deep dive for sure. Second episode is just me where I unpack a solo topic. Do me a favor, leave me a review on your favorite podcast app. And the new book, Integrity First Selling, is out.
Mark Hunter :
So hey, do us all a favor, pick up the book and sell with integrity. My name is Marc Hunter, the Sales Hunter. Great selling.
