On a recent episode of The Sales Hunter Podcast, Mark sat down with Frank Kitchen, CSP, to explore how the buyer’s journey shapes modern selling. Frank, who brings a wealth of experience in sales, customer service, and coaching sales teams, shared practical strategies on moving from transactional selling to truly understanding customers.
It’s Not About the Seller’s Journey
Too many sellers focus on their process and timing, thus missing the mark on what really matters. The buyer is in control now, not the salesperson.
“We think about too much of ourselves versus, as you said, truly understanding what the customer, the client, potential client is going through.”
Modern sales success is about meeting buyers where they are. That means knowing what prompts their intent, not just noticing their interest. It’s about having real insight into when buyers are actually ready to take action.
Intent Beats Interest Every Time
A pipeline packed with leads means little if you don’t know which ones are real. Frank explained how his team filters thousands of potential prospects down to those most likely to buy:
“It’s like trying to go out on a date and tell the person, well, hey, I want to marry you on the first date. No, we’re still trying to understand who that person is, what their thought pattern is, what’s their likes or dislikes.”
Instead of rushing to close, the priority is to be present and helpful well before buyers raise their hands. Timing matters, and so does patience. Sales pros who step in early, offer value, and simply stay in touch are top of mind when real intent appears.
Stand Out by Being Different
With automation everywhere, most customers recognize a sales pitch from a mile away. The key isn’t to be louder, it’s to be different. Frank suggested flipping the script:
“Everybody’s reading the same sales books, going through the same pitch. I want to do something different to stand out from the crowd.”
Instead of hard selling, offer insights, tips, or humor that sets you apart. Even educational emails—think “5 ways to pick out your next speaker”—build trust and authority. The result: when the buyer is ready, you’re their trusted choice.
Focus on the Right Opportunities
Not every lead is a good lead. The best sales teams zero in on their ICP (Ideal Customer Profile). Research, filter, and focus on those whose problems you can actually solve, and who are willing to pay for your expertise.
“Who has the problem that you solve? And more importantly, of those people where you can solve their problem, who’s willing to pay for it?”
A small, high-quality list beats a massive, unfocused database every time.
Go All-In on Asking Questions
Most salespeople don’t ask enough. Questions are the ultimate shortcut to unlocking what buyers really want and the outcomes they care about. Frank summed this up perfectly:
“ASK means you Always Seek Knowledge.”
Survey your buyers. Call past clients. Don’t be afraid of hearing no, instead focus on the yes that could be just one question away.
Mindset Over Mechanics
Desperation has a scent. Top salespeople work enough opportunities to avoid attachment to the outcome of any one deal. When volume is healthy and outreach is value-driven, sellers avoid coming across as needy and replace that with confidence and genuine curiosity.
Sales isn’t about pushing products or filling quotas. It’s about building relationships, providing value, and becoming the resource buyers trust whenever their need arises.
Takeaways
- Lead by understanding the buyer’s timeline, not the seller’s.
- Focus on intent, not just interest.
- Stand out with creativity and value, not volume.
- Filter your list to prospects where you solve a real problem.
- Ask more questions Ask BETTER questions.
The sellers who win are those who become students of their buyers. Sales is about helping buyers buy, not making them buy.
Mark Hunter :
It’s time we talk the buyer’s journey. Hey, too many salespeople are guilty of trying to sell on the seller’s journey. It’s the buyer’s journey that matters. And it’s a level of confidence. With me today, Frank Kitchen. He’s going to unpack it. He’s got a wealth of experience in sales, customer service, leading and sharing with sales teams, helping them get to the next level. Why am I talking? The show begins right now.
Mark Hunter :
You’re listening to the Sales Hunter podcast with Mark Hunter, where the focus is to help you, as a salesman, sell with confidence and integrity. And now here’s your host. Do you know what your buyer’s journey looks like? Okay, Frank, help unpack it for us with me today. Frank Kitchen csp. That’s certified speaking professional. This guy knows how to communicate. Thank you for joining me. So let’s dive right into it.
Mark Hunter :
The buyer’s journey. What do you want to share?
Frank Kitchen :
Well, today is, you know, obviously, we’re here talking about sales, but as you said, we’ve gotten to transactional world. We forget about, you know, sales, all about relationships, and we think about too much of ourselves versus, as you said, truly understanding what the customer, the client, potential client is going through. And the better we can understand them, the better we can close that sale.
Mark Hunter :
Oh, I love where you’re going with this, because this is the whole thing. The buyer’s journey has to have a level of intent. I mean, they may show interest, but they have to have intent. How do we really understand? Because, again, you’ve had the chance working with so many organizations over the years. You do an extensive amount of traveling. How do you begin to tell when? Okay, there’s more than just interest, but there’s intent.
Frank Kitchen :
Oh, interest and intent. I mean, I won’t even go before we get to that part is, you know, as a speaker, we’re always reaching out to people. I’ve got my team helping out, and they go, oh, man. It’s like, you know, let’s go find a thousand leads. And he goes like, well, you could find those, but we need to understand when their booking window is. So when you talk about going to intent, we have to know when they intend to actually start looking for the sales. I mean, it’s similar to the holidays here in the United States. I’m not really trying to sell Christmas trees right now in March.
Frank Kitchen :
Really?
Mark Hunter :
Oh, come on.
Frank Kitchen :
Come on. So there’s no intent. We know that intent, when people start to look, really starts to happen during the fall. So no matter what form of sales you’re in, you really have to understand from the buyer’s perspective when their eyes are open or when they’re starting to look for your product or service.
Mark Hunter :
Okay, now you said something very, you know, said you get a thousand leads, and I think salespeople can wind up with more leads than they know what to do with. But all they are is really just names. They are just names. And this whole thing of interest and intent. In other words, they may be interested. I may be interested in Christmas trees here. We’re recording this in March. That doesn’t mean anything.
Mark Hunter :
Doesn’t mean anything. What are techniques that you’ve used or you’ve seen used or you, you help organizations in helping customers understand intent.
Frank Kitchen :
So as you said, the intent. Let’s just go back to the whole Christmas tree analogy. Well, we can go. Whether we use AI Google, talking to our friends, like, hey, you know, when you hear somebody, I always like using the word win because if is a word of doubt. So I always will say, you know, once again, word choice. When, hey, when you’re looking for a Christmas tree, let me know. But if we know there’s a thousand people out there who are looking for Christmas trees, we may enter them into our database, our CRM, you know, whatever it is. But we start to understand, it’s like, okay, we might send out an email just saying, hey, it’s like, when do you start looking? You know, we start asking questions versus trying to close a sale.
Frank Kitchen :
Right off the bat, you want to understand who you’re working with. And many of the groups may write back, we don’t start looking for Christmas trees until September. I might respond back going, well, hey, be on the lookout for an email or a phone call from me in September. And jokingly, there may be an email that shows on September 1st going, hey, guess what? It’s that time of year. Time to start thinking about your Christmas tree. Still not trying to close the cell, but just trying to remind the people or just spark their interest or an intent that, hey, you know what? It’s going to be close to that time to get that tree of which I know, okay, October, November, that’s when they’re really ready to go. But the idea is, let me at least be in their thought pattern, in their sphere of just, you know, thoughts of, you know what? When I’m ready for one, I’m going to go to Frank. It’s not the first sell is to close the cell.
Frank Kitchen :
I mean, it’s like trying to go out on a date and tell the person, it’s like, well, hey, I want to marry you on the first date. No, we’re still trying to understand who that person is, what their thought pattern is, what’s their likes or dislikes. And I think that’s the big piece of the sales is do we truly understand one is, you know, the buyer. But do we understand what that buyer’s, you know, wallet looks like when they’re ready to buy, what their calendar events? And as I work with different teams and train them is, that’s the first question to go is like, hey, we’re not trying to close the cell on the first conversation. We’re just trying to get them. One is to know who we are and get them to start to trust us.
Mark Hunter :
Okay, now it feels like you’re running a little counter, and I like where you’re going with this. Surveys love to say that the customer doesn’t want to reach out till they’re 67% of the way through the buying process before they want to reach out to a salesperson. You’re really saying you’re trying to get ahead. You’re trying to get way up front to be part of that buying process right from the beginning.
Frank Kitchen :
Yeah.
Mark Hunter :
How do. How do I go about understanding?
Frank Kitchen :
Okay, well, let me. Let me slow down. And I said, I’m going to use this from a professional speaker standpoint and from what I’ve experienced when I’ve talked to people, when I’ve trained sales teams, I’ve worked in retail and corporate, I go, when we’re trying to close that cell right off the bat or, you know, for a speaker, if the conference is in April and right now it’s March, and I call like, hey, do you want to get your speaker? I look desperate when I get ahead of the game, as you said, at 67% and go, hey, you have a conference in 2027 with my last name, I joke around. I was like, I’d love to be on your menu of speakers to consider it’s a different approach. While everybody else is saying, buy me, buy me. I’m just saying, hey, I’d love to be a resource or can I share some information with you? I’m working to educate that client. Then when it becomes time to actually go to the point where we understand, oh, they’re going to start looking at this date or time, they’re more than likely to open my email, take my phone call, because I didn’t come in desperate right off the bat trying to make a sale. I just came in offering my hands like hey, I’d like to know you better.
Frank Kitchen :
Let me introduce myself. So I want them to know who I am first before I try to go in for the kill.
Mark Hunter :
So you’re saying that salespeople should be way out in front?
Frank Kitchen :
Yes. Okay.
Mark Hunter :
Now, does this wind up creating too much activity for salespeople? Because, again, I gotta chase so many people just to try to find out where dates are or where. Where their need might be.
Frank Kitchen :
Well, what’s your definition of too much activity? Because, man, there’s a lot of groups out there where they’re thinking, okay, it’s just going to be one phone call or one email. So anything more than one they think is too much activity. Not understanding in a sales process, and I’m sure you’ve got the facts and the figures, how many times we have to touch that group before they ever recognize or consider us. So during that piece is. I was, you know, when I used to work with my students, I used to work at a college. I go, let’s study to see what everybody else is doing. And they do that. I’m like, okay.
Frank Kitchen :
And then once we study what everybody else is doing, I’m like, okay, let’s do the opposite. Because everybody’s reading the same sales books, going through the same pitch. I want to do something different to stand out from the crowd. So if everybody’s trying to sell you right off the bat, and I come in with, you know, let’s call it a funny email, or in the case of speaking, I’ll be like, hey, here’s five ways to pick out your next speaker. I didn’t say you had to book me. I came with it with a different approach. And those five things may be the five things that I do. So when they go do a little bit of research on me, it’s like, oh, wait, he does those five things.
Frank Kitchen :
So now it feels like it’s their choice or their decision versus me trying to force them into something.
Mark Hunter :
So you’re putting information out to the customer, allowing them to make it. So in order for you to do this, you got to feel very comfortable and you got to have enough opportunities that you can draw on, because otherwise, I mean, if you’re only chasing one lead, one opportunity, that’s when. That’s when you feel desperate. Yeah, right. Yep.
Frank Kitchen :
So. And as you said, everybody talks about pipeline, but, you know, I’m the believer of as we’re looking to close sales or get sales, as you said, if it’s just the list, that’s not really a lead. That’s just the list of names are going to with my team. The way we go and do it is like, well, hey, we can go look for this list, but I’d like to go ahead and filter that list down to maybe 100. 100 people who I know may want to book my services. Of which out of 100, we do the numbers. Like, my wife came to me the other day. She helps out.
Frank Kitchen :
She’s on the team. She goes, well, if we find 100 who may be interested in you, she’s like, and 10 actually pick up the call and then we close one. She’s like, okay, that’s one out of 100. So she’s like, if we want to get 20, then we need to go. So we start to do the math. But everybody can’t be our customer. But everybody may know somebody who could be our customer. So if we can go to this point of trying to educate people about what we do, then that could lead those people to referring.
Frank Kitchen :
Because they may not book us, but they might hear friends like, oh, I need a speaker on X, Y and Z. Oh, wait, I heard this guy had sent me some information and it wasn’t. He was trying to close me or sell, which that throws a lot of people off where it’s like, wait, there’s no thing saying buy here, go and do. Because that’s what everybody else is doing. And we know what the sales pitches look like in emails in the subject lines. We know what it looks like with the phone calls. So I’m going like, why am I going to try to be like everybody else when I can be something a little different?
Mark Hunter :
Talking about that, I got an email today, I said, and if we’re. I want to bounce this to the top of your list. And that just screams salesperson trying to sell me something. And she was. And it’s like, I saw the email the first time. It was pathetic. Don’t try to balance it up because now you’re just telling me you are really pathetic and really desperate. So again, what you’re doing is you’re taking a totally different approach.
Mark Hunter :
You’re trying to provide information, which I think is spot on. Now I want to dive into something else because the whole thing is around what I refer to as the icp, your ideal customer profile. Because again, I come up, I phone book. I don’t think they even make them anymore. But you can get a list of 10,000 names. Doesn’t mean anything but understanding who you serve best. What are strategies that salespeople can use to really understand who is it that they serve best and who should. Where should they focus their time?
Frank Kitchen :
Well, I know I’m preaching to the choir, but, you know, we call it, you know, our ideal avatar. So the idea is like, who has the problem that you solve? And more importantly, of those people where you can solve their problem, who’s willing to pay for it? And a lot of it takes research. And the beauty today is with technology and AI, we can go through and filter out a lot of those processes. But if I’m going to share right now, you know, I’ve got a team. It’s a team of, you know, three of us. And we may find a conference. So we find a conference like, okay, well, the first thing we’re going to go do is, okay, do they have a keynote slot available? So we’ll go through and we’ll research the conference the year before. Okay, so we researched the year before and it says Mark Hunter was the conference.
Frank Kitchen :
It’s like, oh, well, we know Mark Hunter is a paid speaker. I can go research your website now. Once again, a lot of people like, oh, my God, this takes so much work. Well, I’d rather do that work now before I send out an email or make a phone call. So, okay, so Mark Hunter. So I might go do some research. Well, what’s Mark Hunter’s speaking fee? I can go look that up. Or if I know Mark, I can reach out and say, hey, this event here, was it a good event or a poor event? Did they only want sales or do they want professional development? So I’m doing all the research because I need to understand, one is what I have an expertise for.
Frank Kitchen :
And then number two, does that client need that expertise? And if we start to go through and recognize that it’s not a good fit for us, then they’re not going to go into our sales system. They’re not going to really get the phone call. We have to have a good understanding of one is what that client wants and then what we provide. And I think that’s the difficult part for a lot of people when they read the sales books and the videos is they’re just going to go call up anybody and everybody. It’s like, hey, my buddy calls it the double sale. Do you have an event? No. You should have an event. Okay.
Frank Kitchen :
Then it’s like, well, now that you have an event, you should book me. And it’s just as you said, it looks like desperation, you know, through there where our group will reach out. It’s 2026 right now, and they’ll reach Out. And it’s funny about being a professional. There’s an event in April, so we’ll reach out to that group and like, hey, we understand your conference is coming up here in April. When will you start looking for your speakers for your April conference in 2027? That completely blows people’s mind.
Mark Hunter :
Yes.
Frank Kitchen :
Now, one of two things can happen. Number one is if they’re behind this slow on the, you know, momentum or whatever, they’re gonna be like, oh, we don’t have a speaker yet. Can you share your information? Or number two is they’re like, oh, we don’t start looking till June. They just gave me the information. They look in June. We’ll put that in our system and schedule an email. And then, like you said, the email will come back. It’s like, hey, you at AM I.
Frank Kitchen :
Am I being the subject line? You asked me to contact you.
Mark Hunter :
What?
Frank Kitchen :
That’s different, you know, and the whole piece is, like I said, from my experiences, it’s about being different. The human. I. The human, you know, just attention span. We’re always looking for something different. But it’s funny, as we start to study, people listen to your podcast, you may have a guest come on here and be like, I’m going to do it exactly their way. No, don’t try to, you know, repeat what they’re doing. Learn from what they’re doing and apply it into a unique way that works best for you.
Mark Hunter :
Okay. What? I love what you just said because this whole thing you went through, the example that you use in your business as a professional speaker, but the same strategy, you. You got to tweak it. You got to works for anybody. Because what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to call down your list to where these are the ones that have the highest potential and are worth my effort to be going in. And that’s absolutely key. There’s something else that I know you do because, again, you’re focused on the outcome. And this is where, I think so many salespeople fall down.
Mark Hunter :
Your customer could care less about your product or your service. They could care less. What they want is they want to get their problem solved. Either want to solve a problem or create a game. It’s one of the two. Generally, it’s solving a problem. That’s what you have to focus in on. It’s not your product or your service.
Mark Hunter :
And that, I know, is what you do because I’ve watched you. You really focus in on creating an outcome. How can salespeople understand with clarity what a customer’s outcome is that they’re looking for.
Frank Kitchen :
That is the great question that everybody always has to struggle with. But the thing is, as you said, we have to stop focusing on ourselves and we have to focus on that client. And sometimes it may be something as simple as sending out a survey to these potential clients, asking like, hey, what are some of your challenges right now? What are some of your struggles? There’s some groups, I’ve seen it, where they’ll write, it’s like, hey, how much would you pay to have this problem solved? I mean, we always have focus groups. With any other businesses out there, why can’t we do a focus group as a salesperson? So literally, like, you know, when I first started speaking, I wrote to people like, hey, it’s like, you know, you’ve seen me before. What problem do you think that I solve? And they actually gave me the answer. So I was able to put that into my marketing, into my scripts. When I reach out to people, I mean, we’re afraid to ask. And me and my buddy, we made it years ago.
Frank Kitchen :
We said, ask means you always seek knowledge. As salespeople, we have to get better at asking questions. The more questions that we ask, the more information we get. We’re in a point where we try to talk first versus just sitting back to ask a question and listen. And many times the people will give us the answers that we want.
Mark Hunter :
Oh, that is a mic drop moment. I love that. Ask. I love that. Okay, explain that. Ask. What does that stand for again? Go ahead and say it.
Frank Kitchen :
Always seek knowledge. The most successful people in the world ask lots of questions. And the best salespeople in the world ask lots of questions.
Mark Hunter :
Yes, they do. And this is what so many salespeople are afraid to do. They’re afraid to ask questions. And I love also what you said, ask your customers. And this, this thing I tell this of salespeople. Call your last 10 customers, ask them, how did you. How did you benefit from what it is that I shared with you, what it is that I sold you? And you’ve got to get clarity, and that’s. That’s going to shape you in terms of the outcomes.
Mark Hunter :
And now I gotta just develop the questions I need to be asking future customers to begin getting them to share what it is that they’re looking for. But I love the premise of asking more questions. Why do you think salespeople are afraid to ask questions?
Frank Kitchen :
Well, I say a lot of people are afraid to ask questions because they’re afraid of the. No, but when I’m working with sales groups. I explain to people, it’s like when we ask questions, we either stay in the same spot or we move forward. We never lose ground. So if I said, hey, Mark, you know, can I come out and work your team? And you say, no, guess what? I’m in the same spot. If you say, yes, then, okay, I closed the deal. Asking questions. All you can do is move forward.
Frank Kitchen :
And obviously, we’ve got a good friend, Lois Kramer. I love it when she shared it. And Lois goes, every time you ask a question, you risk a yes. But our mindset is always set to, we’re expecting a no. And it’s like, stop thinking, you know, about what you don’t want and start to focus on what you do want. You know, I’ve got a buddy who studies, you know, neuro linguistics and, you know, the brain. And he goes, whatever we focus on, we 10 times it. So if you’re thinking, oh, man, I don’t want to know.
Frank Kitchen :
You’re going to do everything within your body language. The way you speak. I tell people, it’s like, you know, what you think your mind and your body will follow. So if you’re thinking about, I’m going to get a no, then that’s what’s going to happen with your actions and people will be able to see it or hear it. But if you’re thinking about getting a yes and your body 10 times it, there’s gonna be a smile on your voice. There’s gonna be, you know, some fun and energy. You’re not gonna sound desperate. Hey, Mark, my name’s Frank.
Frank Kitchen :
I just wanted to find out some more information on your conference in June. Okay, what do you need to know? Have you secured your keynote speaker yet? Yes, we have. Oh, awesome. Have a great conference. But can I ask you one more question, Mark? Sure, Frank. What’s the question? When do you start looking for speakers for the next year? I’d love to be on your menu. I know my last name’s Kitchen. Oh, we start looking here.
Frank Kitchen :
All right, awesome. And can I ask you one more question? It’s like, yeah. Did you see the big thunderstorm that’s going on in the East Coast? Thunderstorm? Snow. Like, yeah. I was like, I live in your area. I would love to be your backup just in case something bad happens. I could be your backup just in case your speaker can’t make it. Oh, awesome, Frank.
Frank Kitchen :
So, hey, thanks so much. I’ll reach back out to you in June like you asked. I don’t want to bombard you with Emails or phone calls like all these other salespeople do. Oh, hey, thanks, Frank, for understanding what I go through. All right, have a great day.
Mark Hunter :
See, what you just did was you entered into a conversation of helping them. And I always say our mindset going into a sales call predetermines the results we get coming out of it, period. An example I love to use is comes out of nascar and a NASCAR driver. If you are looking at the wall, you will drift towards the wall, and the wall creates a lot of trouble. A wall creates a lot of trouble. And that’s the whole thing. Once you get that, that. No, I’m gonna get thinking it.
Mark Hunter :
I’m gonna get thinking it. So, wow. Absolutely great conversation. And I do love your last. What was your last name before you changed it to Kitchen?
Frank Kitchen :
Bedroom. So bedroom.
Mark Hunter :
Oh, that’s cool.
Frank Kitchen :
People are sleeping on the job, so I just had to change things up.
Mark Hunter :
I see. Hey, we’ve been talking today with Frank Kitchen csp. Absolutely dynamite on the speaking circuit. Frank, how do people get in touch with you?
Frank Kitchen :
There’s only one of me out there. So if they just go to frankkitchen.com, you’ll find a lot of information on me on there or just check me out on LinkedIn at. Frank Kitchen. So it’s spelled just like the room in your house. K I, T, C, H, E, N. I love that.
Mark Hunter :
Anyway, thank you so much for joining us. You’ve been listening to the Sales center podcast. Two episodes a week, one like this, where we do a deep dive with a subject matter expert. Frank certainly fits that bill. Second episode is just me, where I unpack a single topic. Hey, would you do me a favor? Leave me a review on your favorite podcast app. Because again, it’s really how we spread the word by the more reviews we get, whether it be on Spotify, whether it be on Apple, Music, whatever. Hey, the whole goal is to help you see and achieve what you didn’t think was possible.
Mark Hunter :
And I think we did that here today. I’m Mark Hunter, the sales hunter. Great selling.
