On a recent episode of The Sales Hunter Podcast, Mark sat down with Jill Schulman—Marine Corps officer, happiness scientist, Forbes and Psychology Today contributor, and bestselling author of The Bravery Effect.
Jill’s message is simple but powerful: changing your relationship with fear changes everything, from your sales numbers to your sense of fulfillment.
Why Fear is the #1 Blocker in Sales
Fear isn’t just a passing emotion, it’s often the invisible force holding sales teams and leaders back. Jill points to research by Daniel Kahneman showing that humans are “twice as motivated to eliminate risk or to avoid what we fear than to move toward what we want.” In sales, that fear shows up as hesitation: not making the hard call, not standing firm on value, not setting ambitious goals.
As Jill says, “Fear is inevitable. Hesitation, however, is optional. And bravery is trainable.”
Why Bravery is a Skill, Not a Trait
The good news? Bravery isn’t just for superheroes or Marines. Jill is adamant: “Bravery is not a trait. It’s a skill that anyone can build.”
Her path from the Marine Corps to sales leadership to the science of happiness revealed a key insight: the people who excel (and enjoy the journey) have trained themselves to act even when they’re uncomfortable.
Three Practical Ways to Get Braver
Jill breaks down bravery training into three science-backed tools:
Mindset (Cognitive Psychology): She calls it the “warrior mindset.” This isn’t fluff, it’s about mentally framing fear as an opportunity to grow. In tough moments, ask yourself, “What does my future self want me to do?” This future-focus can break through paralysis and spark action.
Behavior (Behavioral Psychology): Attack the hardest thing first. Jill references Roy Baumeister’s research on willpower, explaining, “You have a full battery of willpower first thing in the morning and that battery goes down over time.” That’s why high achievers get the hard stuff done before 10am, building momentum and confidence.
Relationships (Social Psychology): Surround yourself with colleagues and leaders who encourage courage. “That’s putting courage in them, helping them do the brave thing, giving them the praise when they do things right, but also giving them the constructive feedback that’s going to help them grow.”
Action Precedes Confidence
One of the most common pitfalls in sales is waiting until “ready” shows up before taking action. In reality, that’s not how confidence is built. Jill points to Albert Bandura’s research: “Action precedes confidence.” Taking the first step, even while nervous, creates a positive feedback loop for bravery.
“Most people wait until they feel confident and ready, until they act,” Jill shares. “The way to build confidence is not… The way you build confidence is action precedes confidence.”
Lead with High Expectations, Not Comfort
Too many sales leaders opt for “happy dance” management, lowering standards or avoiding honest feedback out of fear their team will disengage. Jill is clear: great leaders don’t coddle, they set high expectations, back them up with support, and believe in their team’s potential to rise to the challenge. Accountability is an act of belief, not harshness.
“When you decide that you’re going to do the hard thing first thing in the morning and you actually do it, you get this dopamine hit. You feel like I just got that done and it’s only 8:30 in the morning.”
Building Your Bravery Muscle (Yes, It’s Like Weightlifting)
Every act of courage—no matter how small—strengthens the “bravery muscle.” According to Jill, “Each time you step forward in the presence of fear, not only are you remodeling and rewiring your brain, but you get a little bit more confident because you’re like, I just did that.” Over time, the uncomfortable becomes routine, and things that once triggered anxiety become opportunities for growth.
Bravery is a Practice, Not a Personality Test
The takeaway from Jill’s work is uplifting but practical: “Just start today.” Don’t wait for some mythical moment of readiness. Use small steps: ask the challenging question, make the first call, hold one tough conversation. The more you act, the more brave you become.
Happiness and Bravery Go Hand in Hand
Avoiding fear feels safe, but it can quietly lead to “depression and anxiety.” The antidote? Bravery isn’t just about getting the sale, it’s about living a happier, more fulfilled life.
As Jill sums up, “If you learn to be brave, that leads to your highest levels of happiness and well being.”
Bravery isn’t just for the battlefield. It’s the X-factor that sets high-performing sales teams, and satisfied humans, apart.
Jill Schulman :
When you change your relationship with fear, you’re going to change your relationship with your clients and your business. With me today, Marine Corps officer and oh, by the way, she’s now the officer of happiness. Do those two go together? Yes, they do. I’m going to unpack it for you and Jill’s going to join us in just a moment.
Jill Schulman :
You’re listening to the Sales Hunter podcast with Mark Hunter, where the focus is to help you as a salesman sell with confidence and integrity. And now here’s your host,
Mark Hunter :
the officer of happiness, an ex Marine Corps officer, Jill Schulman. Welcome to the podcast. This is, this is awesome. You’re, you’re, you write for Psychology Today, you write for Forbes. You are an absolute crushing it out there. You got a book out there, best selling author. Tell the audience because how do we change our relationship with fear? Let’s cut right to the chase right now.
Jill Schulman :
It.
Mark Hunter :
Yeah,
Mark Hunter :
yeah. And that is really what I’m all about. It’s the how. So you know just a little bit about fear first, like fear is this force that many times controls your behavior if you let it. And from a, if we look at the science behind fear, if sometimes fear controls your behavior, you’re just normal because you’re human. We know from Daniel Kahneman’s research, who he won the Nobel Prize for this research, that we’re twice as motivated to eliminate risk or to avoid what we fear than to move toward what we want. So we’re kind of naturally running away from fear. So this is why we, especially those of us who are leading sales or in sales, we have got to learn how to change our relationship with fear if we want to crush our sales goals.
Jill Schulman :
So this is where my background in psychology and you introduced me as a happiness scientist. So let me tell you like what the heck that means. So I went from Marine Corps to sales to sales leadership to now do leadership development in support of sales. So I know a little, a little bit about sales. But I went back to school and I studied psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and I have an applied positive psychology degree. So a master’s of applied positive psychology, which, what does that mean? It’s basically the science of elevating your happiness and well being. So, so when I was studying at Penn, I found the number one blocker that prevent people from being the most successful and also living their happiest life is letting fear control them. And what is the antidote for that? It’s bravery.
Jill Schulman :
So fear is inevitable. Hesitation, however, that is, that is optional. And bravery is trainable so that is what I bring to my clients in the market, to sales organizations is teaching people how to be br. Right. Like just saying, like, just go out there and, and close. But what if someone isn’t closing because they just have this fear of being rejected or ruined the relationship? Like, I mean, how many times do we as sales managers go out there and like they’re going to close when we’re watching them and then when we leave, they’re just going to go back to their comfort zone, you know, so, so that’s really what I do is it’s the psychology behind. So that’s a little bit about me. And what was your question? I forgot.
Mark Hunter :
Well, no, I love this because I want you to unpack this because how do we train bravery? You know?
Jill Schulman :
Yeah.
Mark Hunter :
Because again, if this is, if this is the medicine we need to get over fear.
Jill Schulman :
Yes. Yes.
Mark Hunter :
Every salesperson, I don’t care who you are out there.
Jill Schulman :
Yeah.
Mark Hunter :
You encounter fear to one degree or another, which is limiting your potential.
Jill Schulman :
So let’s unpack this. Yeah. So the way that we trade train bravery is there’s basically three different things that we can do. And it’s all in my book. And he already said that I’m author of the Bravery Facts. It’s all in the book, but it’s really based on, number one, mindset, which I call the warrior mindset because I’m United States Marine. And I say that because I want people to know that mindset is not a bunch of fluffy woo woo stuff. This is absolutely a driver of results.
Jill Schulman :
So we have to. So the first thing is based on cognitive psychology and I’ll give you a tip in a moment. The second is really on behavioral psychology. It’s like when you’re feeling the fear and you’re like, oh gosh, like, oh, I’m scared. I’m just not going to do it. Like, how do you actually take a step forward in the presence of fear? So the second thing is some tips in behavioral psychology. And then finally the third is in social psychology, how our relationships with others in the workplace can help us become braver. So that’s kind of like a wide idea of kind of where my research draws from.
Jill Schulman :
But let’s get practical because your listeners don’t want all the academics speak. They’re like, give me some actual tools. So I’ll just give you a couple of them right away. So first of all, you know, one tip I can give, you know, people. And this is again based on, on psychology is asking yourself in the moment, like in the moment where you feel fear, and we all feel it, because, again, fear is inevitable. I want you to do this little psychological trick, which is ask your future self what you should do in this moment. And just listen to your future self, because your future self is always going to tell you probably what the right thing to do is. So if you think of like, okay, at the end of the month, my sales numbers are at the end of the quarter, whatever it is, like, what is my future self want at the end of the quarter to do right now? Should I ask the challenging question of my customer? Should I move it forward? Right.
Jill Schulman :
So that’s just one little trick that can motivate us in the moment to do the thing that we’re really uncomfortable doing is to think about the consequences or the pain of regret if we don’t.
Mark Hunter :
Okay, now let’s put that into practice, because, yeah, it’s the end of the quarter. I got to close this deal. Customer wants a big discount. Big discount. Okay, I’m going to get screwed. One way or the other, I’m going to get screwed. Either I’m not going to get the deal or I’m going to get the deal at a lower price than I need. What’s that future self talk that’s going to get me to figure this out?
Jill Schulman :
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So if you just ask yourself, like, what does my future self want me to do in this moment? It’s usually brave action. Like, well, I should really stand firm on the value that my product has instead of just discounting it. Right. Or whatever that is, whatever the answer to that is. So this, then this research comes from Dr. Cynthia Puri out of the University of Clemson, where she really.
Jill Schulman :
She is the. She’s the thought leader in bravery. And she said, in the moment, when you’re scared, if you think about the consequence of down the road of not doing it, it can motivate you to take action in the moment.
Mark Hunter :
I like that. Now let’s play this out from a prospecting standpoint. You’re sitting there saying, my pipeline’s empty. I got to make all these cold calls, or how do I get over that fear?
Jill Schulman :
Yes. So I’ll give you another tip. I’ll give you another tip. And that is. I mean, I used to lead sales, and like I said, I was in sales. I used to lead sales and do all that. And when I started my business, in really becoming a thought leader and do keynote speaking, I was talking to this guy. Have you ever heard of him? His name’s Mark Hunter.
Jill Schulman :
He was giving me some advice about like how to start my career. And he’s like, you got to do cold calling. And I was in that moment where I was like, oh, the dread, like do I want to do it right? But what. So here’s a couple of psychological tricks that I use that have helped me do the hard thing, even though I didn’t want to do it. So the first is there’s a technique, and this comes from Roy Baumeister’s research. He’s a famous psychologist that talks about how if you attack the day, which is what I call, when I do keynotes, I call it attack the day. What is the most important thing you need to do in the morning that’s going to advance your business, your sales that you don’t want to do? For me, it’s doing cold calls to like chros or sales leaders that don’t know me and tell them about, you know, what I can do. It’s hard, but if you give yourself the time to do it first thing in the morning.
Jill Schulman :
What we know by Roy Baumeister’s research is that when you do the hardest thing first thing in the morning, you’ve got the best chance of doing it. But what most humans do is we wake up in the morning, we stretch, we get our coffee, we look at our to do list and we’re going to pick the easiest things to do first. That is the natural tendency, oh, I’m just going to answer emails, then I’m going to fold my laundry and then I need to do this busy work and that busy work and we put off the hard thing until the end of the day. And then what happens at the end
Mark Hunter :
of the day, it gets funded to the next day.
Jill Schulman :
Tomorrow, Tomorrow. So this is really one of the reasons for procrastination. So when you decide that you’re going to do the hard thing first thing in the morning and you actually do it, you get this dopamine hit. You feel like I just got that done and it’s only 8:30 in the morning. Oh my goodness. So we’re about to. Roy Baumeister teaches that we’ve think of your, your, your willpower. He calls it psychological resources.
Jill Schulman :
But let’s just use willpower as a simple term. You have the, you have a full battery will willpower first thing in the morning and that battery goes down over time. So take the most important thing you do, do it on a full battery first thing in the morning and you will, you will have a better day because you’re going to have that boost of positive emotions when you get it done. And then the research shows that you’ll be more productive the rest of the day if you simply did this. This is the same thing that, you know, Brian Tracy talks about, like, eat the frog. When I was a. I’m not going to date myself here, but when I got to the Marine Corps and I was on my very, very first sales job, it was Brian Tracy cassette tapes that I was putting into my.
Mark Hunter :
I got him. I got them too. Yep, yep, I’m with you.
Jill Schulman :
Yeah. So, so attack the day. Do the hardest thing. And then keep in mind, if you want to attack the day and you want to have the most productive day that best serves you, then you need to start planning about it, planning your day the night before. So what do you need to do the night before to be able to attack the day? Maybe you need to get the right amount of sleep. You need to get certain things done. So, you know, attacking the day starts the night before and how you prepare. And then when your alarm goes off in the morning, never, ever, ever for the rest of your life, press snooze.
Jill Schulman :
Because when you press snooze, you are breaking your first promise to yourself first thing in the morning. And then that just becomes a trend. So if you tell yourself, I’m going to get my butt out of bed at 6 o’ clock in the morning to start my day, you keep that promise to yourself. And that becomes, you know, something that becomes a habit and not, yes, the literal snooze button. But I say like if you promise yourself that at 8 o’ clock in the morning, you’re going to make those three outbound calls. Do not press snooze on yourself. You said you’re going to do it at 8 o’. Clock.
Jill Schulman :
Keep the promises to yourself. That is real self care. Not taking the morning off, getting coffee, watching. That’s not self care. That is self sabotage. We need to just do the hard thing, keep promises to ourselves.
Mark Hunter :
Oh, I love what you shared there. I have what I call the 10am rule and that’s where you set your alarm for 10am that’s not when you get up in the morning. But the idea is that if that’s, you know, I share that with audiences and I go, okay, hopefully that’s not the time you’re getting up. But the idea is to have accomplished something significant before 10am because when you do that, you get that dopamine hit. Yeah. How much more motivated you are and it’s amazing at how much more You. You just. You just power your way through the day.
Mark Hunter :
And if by chance, the day falls apart, you know, your boss calls and you get your hit, you know, at least you’ve done something significant. But you’re right. Too many people start off doing the easy stuff.
Jill Schulman :
Yeah.
Mark Hunter :
They never get to the hard stuff. And then, oh, I’ll just do it tomorrow. But, you know, the deal is tomorrow never comes because you just keep punting to the next day. The next day.
Jill Schulman :
That’s exactly right. And, oh, you made me think of something else. I got it. I got to share this with you. Like, I know I’m a science geek, and I’m sorry, I just come in and I just throw up all the signs. But one of. One of the absolutely most amazing things I discovered when I studied psychology and I realized this foundational truth because I experienced it. But most people wait until they feel confident and ready, ready until they act right.
Jill Schulman :
Oh, I’m gonna wait until the time feels right, until I feel ready, until I feel, like, motivated. Like, I’m just not confident yet. Maybe the customer’s not ready, so I’m not gonna ask the question right. So what we know, based on Albert Bandura’s research in self efficacy, is that the way to build confidence is not. The way you build confidence is action precedes confidence. So when you take a step, even though you don’t feel ready, and then the sky does not fall and the world does not end, what’s happening in your brain is you’re teaching your brain the amygdala that said, oh, well, that wasn’t as risky as I thought. So what we know is that if you don’t feel quite ready and you feel a little bit scared, you’re exactly in the right place. And that.
Jill Schulman :
That is not a stop sign saying, stop, hesitate. It’s actually a signpost telling you this is probably the most important thing that you need to do. So that’s why I was telling you the name of that article I’m writing for Psychology Today and Forbes is change your relationship with fear. Change your life or change your business. Change your careers. Most people just feel this fear, and I don’t feel ready. So they. They want to wait until they feel ready.
Jill Schulman :
So taking the step first is what builds confidence. So just keep that in mind. And if we just embrace that discomfort, if we embrace that feeling of fear, as this is me leaning forward, this is exactly how I’m going to grow and develop. You’re going to be so much more successful than keep waiting until you feel Ready.
Mark Hunter :
I tell you what, I love your comment. Action precedes confidence because this happens so often with salespeople. They got to make these calls. Well, I just need to do a little more research. I just need to do a little more research, you know, and. And I’ll work with teams. And I’m sure. I’m sure you do, too.
Mark Hunter :
And they set aside, well, this is going to be the hour that we’re going to, you know, the power hour. You know, this is the hour I’m going to make prospecting calls. But they spend the whole hour getting ready to make the calls.
Jill Schulman :
I mean, make them call.
Mark Hunter :
Make the call. I mean, it’s. It’s kind of crazy, but I’ve never known a prospect to sit there and say, boy, I sure hope that salesperson calls me today. It just does not happen. Now, let’s take this up the Food Channel a little bit. Let’s talk about leaders. What should leaders be doing to help give their people tools? Because I think leaders need to emulate this, you know.
Jill Schulman :
Well, everyone has fear. Like I think that sales people have fears of. Can I. Their fear of synonyms. They’re scared of the uncertainty. They’re scared of their big sales numbers and setting ambitious goals. They’re scared of closing. They’re sometimes have the fear of asking the tough questions that will make their customers uncomfortable, by the way.
Jill Schulman :
That’s required for them to change behavior to get them to think differently. Right? But then leaders, you know, leaders sometimes have fears of their own. Sometimes leaders hesitate to give the constructive feedback that’s going to help people grow. Sometimes leaders want to be. Make the sales goals more comfortable so that they. They’re more achievable. Right? So as leaders, we need to set those challenging, brave goals for our salespeople, and we need to support their success by encouraging them. That’s putting courage in them, helping them do the brave thing, giving them the.
Jill Schulman :
The praise of when they do things right, but also giving them the. The constructive feedback that’s going to help them grow. A lot of leaders mistakenly think that I have a choice. I either am going to hold them accountable and then I’m a jerk, or I’m going to not hold them accountable and I’m going to be nice. And that is not the two choices.
Mark Hunter :
Right.
Jill Schulman :
You know, this is assuming that there’s two crappy choices. Instead, we want to be the third choice, which is you’re going to care enough and love your salespeople enough to help them be the most successful. Hold them accountable because you believe in their potential. And you’re going to give them the coaching, the guidance and the feedback to help them achieve that goal and hit that quota because you know that they can. So that’s the way you really love and honor and serve your salespeople is don’t be easy on them. No. Set high standards and help support them. Get there.
Jill Schulman :
To get there.
Mark Hunter :
Thank you for sharing that because I see so many sales leaders going soft. Well, if I, if I push them too hard, they’re going to quit or they’re going to get demotivated. So I’m going to create this happy dance and it just doesn’t do anything at all. But I find that so many times the sales leader is the greatest victim of having fear.
Jill Schulman :
So true. Yeah, so true. I mean, gosh, I’ve been spending, I’ve had my leadership development company for 13 years and we’re going to need 13 hours to unpack all of that. But yeah, a lot of times the person gets promoted to sales leader is the person who was the best salesperson. So being great at sales and being a great leader of salespeople are two completely different jobs. So, you know, as a, I think as a company, as an organization, we need to make sure we’re setting up our sales leaders for success to teach them how to lead. Right. And so sometimes what they naturally think they should do isn’t necessarily what is most effective.
Mark Hunter :
Wow. Hey, we only got a few minutes left. I want you to share some nuggets from the book the Bravery Effect, because it’s a great book. So share some nuggets because the readers need, you know,
Jill Schulman :
so a couple of my, my mentors and some of my favorite books that I have read that I have, my clients sometimes read as well are written as parables. So like Ken Blanchard, who wrote the ford of my book and he’s been my mentor for years. He’s got the new one minute manager and then John Gordon, if you’ve ever heard of him. Another mentor of mine, like love his. So I was influenced by these gentlemen and so I decided to write it as a parable. So the book the Bravery Effect is a parable. Teaching the science of conquering fear, achieving more, and living life to the fullest. So it is easy to read.
Jill Schulman :
But everything in the story is based on evidence. As you can tell, I’m a nerd. And for any of you who like to nerd out like me on the organizational industrial psychology behind it, it’s all in the back of the book. So you. That’s optional Just read the story. And then it teaches people how to build the skill of bravery. So the one takeaway in the book is I just want everyone to know, your audience to know if you’re listening and saying, oh, gosh, I’m just not, just not that brave person. Bravery is not a trait.
Jill Schulman :
It’s a skill that anyone can build. And I know that, and I’m saying it with certain, with scientific certainty that anyone can build bravery. It just takes little by little. It’s just, it’s like working out your muscles. If, if, if someone came up to me and said, I’m just not strong, there’s just nothing I can do about it, I would say you’re being ridiculous. If you go to the gym and you grab some weights and the weights are uncomfortable, they hurt a little to. And then the next day you’re sore, your body is going to, you know, it’s going to adjust so that it’s a little stronger the next day. And over time, you can build that strength.
Jill Schulman :
It’s the exact same thing that happens with bravery. You know, we need to go, like, right outside your comfort zone. Do something that’s a little bit scary, and just keep doing that again and again. Because each time you step forward in the presence of fear, right? Not only are you remodeling and rewiring your brain, because our brain changes in reaction to this, but you get a little bit more confident because you’re like, I just did that. I just did that. And then the next time you face fear, you’re more apt to do it again. So bravery is a skill you build over time, like a muscle. So if you find yourself that person, like, gosh, if I was only brave, I could be more successful as a salesperson.
Jill Schulman :
You know what? Just start today. Start today. My book has all the strategies or if people go to my website, I just, I give downloadable free resources. So people can just take the quiz, the bravery assessment, download the free bravery blueprint, because I just. It’s just sad to see people’s lives and their careers limited because they’re allowing fear to hold them back.
Mark Hunter :
Wow, that’s powerful. And coming from a person who is from the Marine Corps. Marine Corps veteran.
Jill Schulman :
Semper Fi. Yes.
Mark Hunter :
You never stop being a Marine Corps, right?
Jill Schulman :
Yeah. Once a Marine, I was a Marine,
Mark Hunter :
always a Marine with that. Hey, how do people get in touch with you?
Jill Schulman :
I am Most active on LinkedIn, so if anyone follows me on LinkedIn, it’s just Jill Schulman. And you can see my name listed here on the Podcast. I’m also getting out of my comfort zone and being brave. So now I’m on Instagram, I’m on Facebook and other platforms, but really, probably the best way is just go to my website. If you just go to my website and take the free bravery assessment, then you get some free tools you can download right away and then you’ll get my newsletter. And that’s probably the most important thing is I make a commitment every month to give you, I share a story and I share a tip that you can apply right away to be braver in your sales in order to meet and exceed your quotas. So those are the ways that people can get a hold of me.
Mark Hunter :
Wow. Change your relationship with fear. You’re going to change your relationship with your life. That is powerful. I love that. We’ve been talking today with Jill Schulman, Marine Corps veteran. Once a Marine, always a Marine, and now she’s the happiness officer. How’s that going from one branch of the service to another branch? Going great.
Jill Schulman :
And people think like, wait, these two things don’t relate. But if you, if you learn to be brave, that leads to your highest levels of happiness and well being. So when people avoid what they fear, they think, oh, it’s going to make me happier. But actually that leads to depression and anxiety. So we need to do the thing and be brave and that will lead to a happier, more fulfilled life.
Mark Hunter :
Isn’t it amazing how life is a mental game?
Jill Schulman :
It is. It really is. Yeah, it really is. We just get in our own way. It’s self sabotage. Like there’s so much opportunity and if we can, if we can figure out how to win the mental game, we can achieve any, anything we set our mind to.
Mark Hunter :
It’s amazing. Jill, thank you for being on the podcast today. You’ve been listening to the Sales Hunter podcast. Two episodes a week, one like this, where we do a deep dive with a subject matter expert. Joel Schulman certainly meets the criteria on that one second episode of Just Me with a one topic where we unpack. Hey, I want you to listen to the podcast because I do them to help you see and achieve what you didn’t think was possible. Leave me a review on your favorite podcast app and I’ll see you on the next episode. Great selling.
